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Saturday, March 24, 2007



Thank you for the mention. I was so surprised that you saw this at BLOGHER. I've been wondering at the lack of comments there if the site was all fluff and cooking...
Thanks for the great graphics. I'm posting a link for them at
Thornes World BLOG

Blue Gal

These are so totally amazing. Linky love today today today. And thanks you wonderful woman you! Blogrolled! Blogrolled!

Jim McMeans

Who created the concept of the separation of Church and State? It wasn’t the ACLU, the Supreme Court, or Thomas Jefferson. It was Jesus.

Many Christians today believe that Church and State separation is a founding Christian principle. For example, Jesus was born into an almost totally theocratic society. Jesus and his apostles and disciples could have easily incorporated much or most of the theocratic elements of Judaism into Christianity, but they did not, as is clearly evidenced from the New Testament scriptures and the known history of the first two hundred years of Christianity. Thus, separation of church and state can be said to be one of Christianity’s founding principles.

When Christianity became the semi-official religion of the Roman Empire in the early 300’s, it marked the beginning of the persecution of Christians by other Christians. Christians in Europe and Asia called Novations and also Donatists who lived in North Africa were the first victims of a Christian –State union. These early Christians were persecuted over the issue of church governance. The victims of the persecution believed this new Church-State union or rapprochement was intended to serve the interests of the state and a few ambitious churchmen, not God.

As a result of a continuing series of abuses carried out by various Church-State unions in Europe, in 1457 the Moravians in Bohemia denounced all unions of church and state.

In the year 1524, Anabaptists in Zurich advocated the practice of the separation of church and state.

In 1631 in America, Roger Williams advocated that the Puritans "separate church from state in their colony."

Until only recently, the separation of church and state was considered a vital and non-negotiable principle of the Baptist denomination, which traces their roots back to the apostolic age. According to the Southern Baptist Statement of Faith which can be found on their website, “Church and State should be separate.”

The Bible is the constitution of Christianity. It is illogical when political conservatives who believe in a “strict constructionalist” interpretation of the U.S. Constitution fail to employ that same principle in religion, and neglect or ignore the beliefs and principles of the founders of Christianity as revealed in the Bible.

These are only a few of many examples of the practice of the concept of the separation of church and state predating Jefferson, the Founding Fathers and the Constitution. Email [email protected] if you wish to read a copy of a longer article on the subject with more historical examples of Christians who believed the separation of church and state was one of the founding principles of Christianity.

Xris (Flatbush Gardener)

Liz: Got your comment on my announcement post. I want to reassure you that I fully understand the intent of this blogswarm, and my contribution will speak to that.

I announced that I will be writing about the "connection between gardening and spirituality ... from a personal perspective." I can and will relate this to the right to non-expression. Part of my story is my experiences of having that right violated. I am an atheist. For me, spirituality has nothing to do with religion.

I also appreciate your graphics. I've set aside the graphic of the boy carrying the flag and lighting the flares. That has particular resonance for me, as I will write about next weekend.

Thanks again, and I look forward to the swarm!


I run a small Live Journal community called Dark Christianity. We're going to participate in this blogswarm, too. We've been discussing this subject for nearly four years. It's about time that it got more attention.


Tried to post a trackback but it wouldn't work for some reason. Just wanted you to know that we're participating and have linked to your graphics. Thanks!

Harry Hamil

I support the "Blog against theocracy." I came to you from a notice I received from First Freedom First and selected you because of your blog's name. I am a dreamworker. It is my foundational spiritual discipline. I, also, live an active outer world religious life. I have been regularly participating in 2 different religious movements for over 15 years--Unitarian Universalism and the Episcopal Church.

I'm particularly sensitized to end of life issues because of the recent death of my mother. She lived with my wife and me the last 16 months of her life. I was her primary caregiver. On Valentine's Day, she decided to quit eating because she realized that her dementia was worsening and she feared that her family's penchant for longevity would keep her alive long after she had lost almost total touch with reality. She was unwilling to allow that to happen because of the impact it would have on her immediate family, her friends and the potentially huge economic cost. It seems to me that her concern was accurate as she lived 24 days on essentially no food and the last week or on almost no liquids. A part of her held onto life like a pit bull but with the love of her friends and family and the wisdom of her priest, she finally let go. I had the privilege and honor of being present.

Had my brother or sister or aunt or... been opposed, I hate to think of what would have happened. It is important to note that resistance would not have had to be based upon religious belief for someone to have wreaked havoc. Our judicial system would have allowed itself to be utilized in a despicable way.

I use my common name (official name--George Harrison Hamil) because I know it is important for us to not only be willing to speak up but also to be counted! Anyone who wants to find me can easily do so as I'm, apparently, the only living "Harry Hamil" in the USA. There are some misspellings of the actor, Harry Hamlin's name.

Christina joseph

this appears to be comment spam, as the link below takes you to a sales websiteConstitution fail to employ that same principle in religion, and neglect or ignore the beliefs and principles of the founders of Christianity as revealed in the Bible.

http://www.vividads [dot] com [dot] au/

Arthur mcbeth

As a result of a continuing series of abuses carried out by various Church-State unions in Europe, in 1457 the Moravians in Bohemia denounced all unions of church and state.

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Why do some Americans not understand what the separation of church & state means?
I keep hearing silly crap like "The separation of church & state is there is keep government from interfering with religion". Why do they believe this?


Can anyone tell me when the church first came out against vaccines? The year?


Thanks for the comment, Kammy


Which church?


Which vaccines?

some more blog posts related to your question


Hello Liz,

I am talking about any church denomination that first spoke out against vaccines. I am speaking about all vaccines, esp. childhood vaccines. Seems like it was the Catholic church.



While I am NOT a "churchgoer" (if that is what they
are called) and likely will NEVER become one ---
I do feel a strong need to note that the phrase of
"separation of church and state" is NOT found
ANYWHERE at all WITHIN 'THE American
CONSTITUTION' (or ANY of its Amendments).

The Phrase of "Separation of Church and
State" is a statement that was taken out
of 'The Federalist Papers' (which, by the
way, are NOT the governing documents
of the United States of America) --- and it
was actually based on a Biblical teaching
of Jesus Christ in His statement about
"rendering" (i.e. "separating") things
unto 'Caesar' (i.e. the government)
that belong to 'Caesar' and things
unto 'God' (i.e. "religion")
that belong unto 'God'.)]

In today's modern world, the phrase of
"Separation of Church and State" has
now become an over-used statement
that's more akin to a worn-out cliché
that's preferred by uninformed people who ...

1) are unaware that 'European History and
Eurocentric Viewpoints" simply do NOT
represent every group on the planet.

[i.e. Everyone on the planet has NOT experienced
being "Persecuted" by 'The Church' of Europe -- but
rather -- some of the rest of us have been (and are yet
still being) "persecuted" by 'the mosque', 'the temple',
etc. systems -- that are found elsewhere on earth and
everything does NOT revolve around the history,
viewpoints and experiences of the Europeans.]

2) by "SINGLING OUT" the so-called "church"
(rather than by simply using a more generic, neutral
and, dare I to even say, a more culturally-inclusive
phrase such as that of "Religion") --- it REVEALS
(especially to anyone who is a not a "christian)
that one is quite solely, specifically, and directly
'TARGETING' the 'Christian' faith for "separation"
-- and THAT is a form of DOUBLE-STANDARD
and HYPOCRITICAL BIGOTRY that rivals that
of the radical "religious right" found worldwide.

3) by "SINGLING OUT" the so-called "church" for
"separation" -- it opens the door for non-christian
religions to add their religious practices into the
American government system by using the simple
"recant" of "we are not part of "the church" and thus,
you cannot target us for "separation" from 'the state'”.

As a result of this convenient '”recant", many American
public schools and government offices have now found
themselves being required to add "religious" symbols
(ex. 'muslim prayer rooms') due to the 'convenient' fact
that they are not associated as being 'church'-related.

This is just one of the many reasons that I feel that
certain Americans really need to understand that ---
their action of singling-out 'a symbol' (the "church")
of a specific religious group ('christianity') for being
THE specific 'Target' of "Separation" (much to the
exclusion of the many other religious groups found
in the nation) ---- 1) comes across to many people
as being BOTH an overbearing attempt to try to
enforce a "freedom" FROM religion AND also as
a type of "persecution" (if I dare say) against that
specific religious faith, practice and teaching AND
2) it also leads to many of the non-'church' religious
groups feeling as if they have a 'loophole' in which
they can force their practices onto the government
(i.e. "we are NOT 'a church', so we CAN do this").

Currently, in parts of Europe, the Muslim faith is THE
specific TARGET of secularization --- and in America,
clearly the Christian faith is THE TARGET of the same.

Sadly, all of this TARGETING (against specific religious
groups and teachings) is being done "in the name of our
secular freedom" (just as in the past, 'secular freedom'
was targeted by some religions "in the name of God and
holiness"); it makes the TARGETED group look and feel
as if they are being "persecuted"; and, it is simply leads
to a hatred and contempt for the targeted religious group
(which can lead to 'reactionary-radicalization' and / or
even a sympathy-led "push" for "privileged treatment").

So how about ... if we all just PLEASE try to STOP using
the overworn, worn-out, clichéd (and dare I to even say
BIGOTED) phrase of "Separation of Church and State"
-- and let's all try to, instead, use a more inclusive
(and less "targeted" or "biased") phrase such as

Seriously, I feel we should all work together in order
to learn how to STOP THE religious-TARGETING;
to neutralize the terms; to let people practice as
they belive; to keep RELIGION and GOVERNMENT
(and NOT JUST 'church' and 'state') separate; and
let everyone live and let live -- without ANY group
being hassled and / or specifically singled-out.

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Religion is creating enemies, war and mistrust. I think a world without it would be much more peaceful.

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Low Carbon Steels

Good stuff as per usual, thanks. I do hope this kind of thing gets more exposure.


I think there should be a separation between the religion and government. We should be confused as how the perform their powers.
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Until only recently, the separation of church and state was considered a vital and non-negotiable principle of the Baptist denomination, which traces their roots back to the apostolic age. According to the Southern Baptist Statement of Faith which can be found on their website, “Church and State should be separate.”

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