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Friday, March 04, 2011

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The Domestic Goddess

Why am I not surprised? *eyeroll*

René "Epi Ren" Najera

I now invoke the name of the deity because I am THAT angry now... JESUS CHRIST ALMIGHTY!!! Jenny McCarthy re-tweets Dr. Jay who re-tweets me? After all the grief the Generation Rescue lawyers gave me over the Desiree Jennings deal, you'd think that Ms. McCarthy would know that I would not be taking or promoting an anti-vaccine stance. That's it... Dr. Jay is now blocked from access to my tweets. (Only fair since Ms. McCarthy and her then-partner Jim Carrey blocked my access to their tweets.)

Emily Willingham

He puts on this face of insouciance when he comments and tweets and misrepresents, but if you get a DM from him, you see the real reaction he's having. Let's just say it's the hidden Hyde to his cheery Dr. Jekyll routine. After I tweeted his comment (to Orac; EpiRen RT'd that), Dr. J____ seems to have deleted the DMs.

That Dr. Gunter thing? He deliberately misled w/ the original tweet linking her post to another very poorly written piece in which a lawyer is quoted to substantiate the asserted autism-terbutaline link. It was horrible work, and any MD worth the degree would never have countenanced it. As if that weren't bad enough, he then proceeded to try to stir the pot, as you've described above, misleading Dr. Gunter until I was able to tell her the sequence of events. Really slimy stuff. Given that I wouldn't want this guy anywhere near something I hold dear, there's not a chance in hell that Dr. J_____ could ever be my pediatrician. Yikes.

Jay Gordon

Dear Liz--

I can’t believe I have to waste my time answering your attacks.

I read Dr. Gunter’s website every day and really liked this article:

http://www.preemieprimer.com/terbutaline-and-preterm-labor-just-say-no/

I also follow lots of other news and found this article based on Duke research interesting:

http://www.theautismnews.com/2011/02/24/terbutaline-linked-to-autism/

I did not retweet Dr Jen’s tweet nor do anything else to imply that she supported the Duke story. I merely put two related links into the same tweet:

JayGordonMDFAAP Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP
Terbutaline for preterm labor doesn't work http://bit.ly/gnNKnp and might increase autism http://bit.ly/i3ev1h
25 Feb Favorite Reply Delete

This was my own tweet and there was zero implication that Dr. Gunter was atttached. It linked to two completely different web sites and you know that.

In your persistent efforts to stir up trouble and polarize all discussions of pediatrics, autism and medications, you painted my tweet as somehow indicating that Dr. Gunter supported the Duke article. That was unpleasant and very deceptive.

In my dealings with the people at Orac’s site, I’ve come to realize that a significant number of the people who post there have social skills issues. I believe you’ve said the same of yourself. This makes communication difficult and I am attempting to extricate myself from those circular perseverative exchanges. (My particular issue is unmedicated ADD. I’m doing pretty well, thanks.) I am particularly incensed at Orac’s (David Gorski, MD, a surgeon and reseracher, as you know) posting a joking about a “Dirty Harry” character getting ready to kill anti-vaccinationists with the same rationale which led to Dr. Tiller’s death at the hands of anti-abortion activists. This is despicable.

http://www.respectfulinsolence.com/
Now there's a skeptic movie I'd go to see!


On your website you make the statement:

“Then it turned to the weird. Jay Gordon MD, who is a pediatrician, evidently decided that not only is terbutaline ineffective in preventing preterm labor, it is also causal in autism, and alleged that Jen Gunter MD shared that belief (the tweet is from EpiRen's account; I did not save a screenshot of the original tweet from Jay Gordon)”

http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2011/03/when-a-twitter-user-misreprents-the-meaning-of-your-tweets.html

Rene’, another self-created adversary then began a string of retweets with the same implication. It’s not true and you knew it then and know it now.

Emily, another blogger with issues then joined the fray.

Liz, please stop this.

Jay


Liz Ditz

Dear Jay,

I objected to your misuse of Jen Gordon's tweet (and post) to advance the unproven notion that a drug may be implicated in autism.

I thought you owed her an apology.

I objected to you misrepresenting my point of view. That is hardly "an attack".

I objected to your failure to correct your misrepresentation of my views to your followers. That is hardly "an attack".

I fail to see what Orac or Dr. Gorski has to do with the previous three points.

René "Epi Ren" Najera

Here's how I saw it...

1) @EJWillingham Tweets a link to her blog, where she takes Dr. Jay to task over his belief of a trebutaline-autism link based on the testimony of a lawyer and an unnamed, uncited Duke study.

2) I click on the link, like what I read, and tweet the link with the question, "So does Dr. Jay get his medical information from lawyers?" Or something like that. I have the screen shots.

3) Dr. Jay replies to my tweet (#2, above) with something like "No, I get it from @DrJenGunter" and retweets my tweet (#2, above).

4) Dr. Gunter then tweets at me something like, "Dude, my issue is with trebutaline" or some such. Again, I have the screenshots if we need to clarify further.

5) This is just speculation, but Dr. Jay extracts himself from the discussion. I am then left trying to explain to Dr. Gunter what I meant: That Dr. Jay was using referent authority to put her post and the lawyer post (#1, above) in one tweet to (speculating) link the two concerns into one.

6) Dr. Gunter understands the miscommunication after @EJWillingham helps mediate and explain. I breathe a sigh of relief... I hate arguing with colleagues.

7) I auto-tweet (through a service I have set up) Liz's post.

8) Dr. Jay takes my tweet and distributes it, edited. In my opinion, it really does look like Liz is sending out an anti-vaccine message. It's out of context.

9) That tweet (#8, above) gets retweeted by none other than Ms. Jenny McCarthy.

10) Having been retweeted by Ms. McCarthy (#9, above) I am now left with no other alternative but to block Dr. Jay from direct access to my tweets, lest he retweets something edited and out of context that embarrasses me... As if being retweeted by Ms. McCarthy wasn't embarrassing enough.

Addendum: Dr. Jay did say that he hated to attract followers to me through his interactions with my twitter account. While I appreciate Dr. Jay's concerns, he will surely find that my followers are unique in that they 99% self-thinkers, 99.7% reasonable, and 98% people who go on evidence and not uncited, speculative information from a lawyer-supported website... Him being, in my opinion, the other 2%.

Emily Willingham

It's funny that Dr. J____ calls me a "blogger with issues," as he tweeted not too many weeks ago about what a smart, brilly sort of blogger I am and linked to both my personal and my science blog, beaming with luv for them. As erratic in that as in all else, Dr. J___. He then elected to follow me on Twitter. He must have unfollowed me in a brief fit after DMing me about "antipathy" and "crap," because he then re-followed me the same day. Cycle much?

Jay Gordon

Emily, because we disagree and because I think you have issues (I don't??) doesn't mean I don't want to read your ideas and share them with others. I do the same with Orac's blog, Prometheus', Salty's and a few others. I send people to Seth's place and to Rene's, too, for heaven's sake.

I'm not threatened by people with points of view diametrically opposed to mine. My objection is when things get nasty, polarized and when distortions like the above take place. Both you and Liz know that I wasn't implying that Dr. Gunter thought Terbutaline contributes to autism. You just wanted to make trouble and make sure that she knew that you think I'm a jerk. That was unkind and wrong of you to do that.

Jay

Jay Gordon

By the way,when Rene' says: "Addendum: Dr. Jay did say that he hated to attract followers to me through his interactions with my twitter account. " He's stating the opposite of what I said to him.

JayGordonMDFAAP Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP
@EpiRen Rene, I don't mind adding to your followers. Yes, there are meds that do NOT cause autism. Unnecessary question. Need less animosity
________________
Why would he lie? I'll ponder that question.
___________________


You might also view the exchange between Rene' and me about measles vaccines.

JayGordonMDFAAP Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP
RT @EpiRen: Let's play this game, Doc. Measles, highly infectious or not? Yes or no// Yes. Especially in less healthy population(not a game)

JayGordonMDFAAP Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP
RT @EpiRen: Next question for @JayGordonMDFAAP... Measles vaccine, highly effective or not? Yes or no, please.//Appears VERY effective

JayGordonMDFAAP Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP
RT @EpiRen: Final question, In an outbreak of measles, would you recommend vaccination to contain it? Yes or no, please.//Yes, I would.

Do my tweets sound like the ranting of an "anti-vax loon" as Rene and David Gorski (Orac) call me?

The population of greater Boston, by the way, is 4.4 million people or so.

Jay

Jay Gordon

And to be clearer, I apologize because my tweet appeared to misrepresent your point of view. That was not my intent.

May I also ask you to apologize because you have tried to make Dr Gunter believe that my intent was different that it really was?

Jay

René "Epi Ren" Najera

Since we're playing the captcha game, Dr. Gordon... When did I ever call you an anti-vax loon? Anyone who knows me and knows my writings knows that I hate name-calling. I refuse to do it, in fact.

And the "I don't mind" vs. "I'd hate"... Yes, my mistake. I misquoted you. See how I can readily accept my mistakes as soon as they're pointed out to me?

That's been my policy all my life, to accept when I am wrong and called on it, no debate needed. It's a good way to live. It really had gotten me places.

4.5 Million in Greater Boston. Vaccine coverage rates differ by state and even by county, hence my worry about using such a wide net. But, whatever...

Why must we play these games?

Emily Willingham

"I'm not threatened by people with points of view diametrically opposed to mine. My objection is when things get nasty, polarized and when distortions like the above take place. Both you and Liz know that I wasn't implying that Dr. Gunter thought Terbutaline contributes to autism. You just wanted to make trouble and make sure that she knew that you think I'm a jerk. That was unkind and wrong of you to do that."

Excuse me while I go shower that off. You absolutely intended to do what you were doing (or else you're just utterly inept at using Twitter, which I doubt). I'd give that a bye if it hadn't happened *more than once.* It's emerged as an MO.

Orac
Since we're playing the captcha game, Dr. Gordon... When did I ever call you an anti-vax loon?

Or me, for that matter. I cannot recall ever calling Dr. Jay an "anti-vax loon," although I have on many occasions pointed out that he is an apologist and enabler for the anti-vaccine movement.

Jay Gordon, MD, FAAP

René, it's not a game. And your misquote somehow is less wrong than mine. And there is no apology here or elsewhere.

It's not a game. I messed with Liz, thought it a small private joke. It was not--and I apologized.

Orac, you have no moral compass. You may have never stood toe-to-toe with me and used the words "anti-vax loon" just things far nastier and libelous. And your posse continues to be reprehensible in their behavior. You're more interested in gaining "unique visitors" with (extremely well written) polarizing screeds.

Emily, read the above. Liz and I go way back and I made a mistake. Sometimes I just misunderstand the way others deal with this topic. I can disagree and still be friends. I honestly think of Liz that way. She's fierce but honest, disagrees without being rude and I listen to her.

Jay

Liz

Dear Jay,

Thanks for your appreciation of me.

But oh, my. The block quotes below are from your comment, above.

Orac, you have no moral compass.

That is a pretty serious accusation, especially against a fellow physician and a scientist. You don't give much evidence for this accusation.

I have not met Orac in person, although we have exchanged emails and I have been reading his blog for...goodness, six years now.

I strongly disagree with your accusation. In my view, based on my reading of his writings and our email exchanges, Orac has both a strong moral and strong ethical compass.

You go on to say,

You [Orac] may have never stood toe-to-toe with me and used the words "anti-vax loon"

The category heading Orac uses for discussions of things having to do with vaccination refusal and anti-vaccination propaganda isAntivaccination lunacy. I poked through the list a bit. Much of the anti-vaccination claims are....lunacy:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lunacy

2: wild foolishness : extravagant folly
3: a foolish act

Back to you:

just things far nastier and libelous.

But you don't say what those nasty and libelous things are. You just threw it out. "Nasty" I will give you a pass on (see below) but accusations of libel need evidence.

Yes, Orac (and his "friend" at Science-Based Medicine) has rebuked you more than once for asserting that vaccines cause autism and for making various other claims about vaccines and disease processes that are counter-factual. The rebukes started as early as May 2005. Yes, sometimes he has said things like The stupid, it sears. It burns thermonuclear. No, it flames supernova, in response to your claim (in your July 2008 interview with Cookie Magazine--the interview is nolonger available from Cookie) that

I think that the public health benefits to vaccinating are grossly overstated. I think that if we spent as much time telling people to breastfeed or to quit eating cheese and ice cream, we'd save more lives than we save with the polio vaccine.


You go on to say:

And your posse continues to be reprehensible in their behavior.

That is certainly loaded language. All commenters at Respectful Insolence are Orac's "posse"? Why then are perseverative anti-vaccination commenters such as Sid Offit, Th1Th2, Jen, and Augustine -- all regularly allowed to comment?

And "reprehensible in their behavior" -- I'll give you a pass on the behavior part, when you surely mean "reprehensible in their language. But why do you assume that Orac is responsible for the things said in the comments on his blog? The comments are moderated, in the sense that comments with a lot of HTML are held up for approval (including comments without links, but a lot of mark-up) but in the larger sense, Orac does not control who posts or what they say. Why are you holding him responsible for what is said in the comments?

Yes, sometimes the commenters use profanity and resort to name-calling.

You're more interested in gaining "unique visitors" with (extremely well written) polarizing screeds.

I am not sure what you are alleging here. If you are alleging that Orac's in it for the money....well, prove it. Otherwise it is merely a weak variation on the "pharma shill" gambit, and you should be ashamed. We both know that Orac's day job pays much more than his blogging gig.

About the name-calling. I think you should take care. After all, you made the following assertion:

I guess I do see rotavirus but in breastfeeding babies, in healthy families it rarely needs in-office care let alone inpatient care. And I never give the rotavirus vaccine. Again, breastfeeding babies do not need it.

Kristen responded with


So tell me, after breastfeeding for 16 months why did my daughter lose 23% of her weight and have to be in the hospital until her electrolytes were normalized

You replied

Kristen, what you're describing is not medically possible. (Except the part about my being an asshole. That's very possible on my bad days.) Your child did not experience a 23% weight loss.

You've lost me. You had me, you lost me. You're fibbing now.

Kristen went on to post


Dr. Jay,

I am sorry you are correct. I just went to look in her baby book. She went from 28.4 lbs (at 15 month well visit) to 22.1 lbs. (upon hospital admission somewhere around 16 months) I mis-mathed in my head. Please let me know how your math works out on that one (believe it comes out to 21.071428571428571...% not 23%). Perhaps it was because she was rather chubby to begin with? I don't know, but it is in fact possible because it happened (I find it rather interesting that you will believe a mother when she says "[soon after the shots] boom -- the soul's gone from his eyes." but you doubt me).

You had the grace to reply

Kristen, I apologize. I was wrong before, I might even be wrong again in the future, and I was definitely wrong to argue with a mother about her child's illness. I'm terribly sorry you had to go through that frightening experience and even sorrier that I was insensitive enough to argue with you about it.

Jay, my sense of you as a person and as a pediatrician is that you truly have what you believe is the best interest of your patients and your community at heart.

What you are hearing (here and elsewhere) is that your beliefs are being challenged.

What would get you to question your beliefs about the vaccine-autism connection?

What would get you to question your beliefs about the safety and efficacy of the current vaccine schedule?


Orac
Orac, you have no moral compass. You may have never stood toe-to-toe with me and used the words "anti-vax loon" just things far nastier and libelous

Name one libelous thing I've ever said about you. Just one. Then show it to be libelous. And, no, stating in a post that you have no clue about science is not libelous because (1) it's an opinion and opinions are protected speech and (2) In case there's any doubt I backed that opinion up with a discussion of how your own words demonstrate that. Remember, "opinion that I don't like" or "criticizing my words" is not the same thing as "libel."

Let's just put it this way. I put up with far worse from your buddy J.B. Handley and his little minion Jake Crosby, the latter of whom did libel me but, being a poor college student, is not worth suing (although I seriously considered getting a lawyer and going after him last summer) than anything I've ever said about you. In fact, until very recently, I've intentionally kept it milder or qualified my criticisms because I thought you were a nice guy.

Your recent behavior makes me think you are perhaps not as nice a guy as I had always thought. Strike that. There's no "perhaps" about it.


You're more interested in gaining "unique visitors" with (extremely well written) polarizing screeds.

What a load of bollocks, Dr. Jay.

Truth be told, I'd probably be able to get a lot more unique visitors if I were to switch over to the anti-vaccine and alternative medicine side of the fence. If that were my only goal, it'd make a lot more sense for me to "switch sides." Mike Adams and Joe Mercola get a lot more "unique visitors" than I am ever likely to garner.

DrDuran

Wow, as I said on RI Dr Jay has a Profound Misunderstanding in general, now it's about the law. He just seems to enjoy stepping in steaming piles of Cow Excrement.

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